In part 2 of our interview with Yago Sagrado from Keywords Studios, we discussed World Of Warcraft gameplays and recognitions for game audio localization professionals.
We also got a bit more personal and talked about people who are not gamers, the problems of vertical organizations and personalities.
Andrej Zito
So, speaking of people, what do you think about people who work in the game localization, but they are not gamers? Your personal opinion?
Yago Sagrado
Okay, so I would say there are fantastic PMS that really don’t gain or are not passionate gamers, I’d say, being a gamer, as I was saying before, adds to the expertise we’re talking about. So maybe you’re gonna have a pm dealing with a project with a game as a service project, a game that has content released every month or every two months, for years. And how good that pm can be. It’s always tied up in, in a way to how much they know about the project they’re dealing with. So if they’re gamers, I would say, makes things easier. I know that all companies have people that are not really passionate about games, they probably have a lot of other qualities. But I would say is say, being passionate about games is a common thing, at least as in keywords. And in other places I’ve worked at this is the usual.
Andrej Zito
Yeah, I agree with you. There isn’t we The reason why I brought it up is because at some point I was interviewed for I think project manager maybe position within a game localization companies or your competitor. And I know that the founder, like she doesn’t know much about games, she just like a business. Definitely. Like she just saw an opportunity. But she doesn’t play any games. And when I asked her and when I found this out, to me, kind of like turned me off, because I always see maybe it’s because I’ve been gaming, probably just like you like since I was a child. So I always see like the people who are in the gaming industry, like, like, you should be passionate about the games.
Yago Sagrado
Yeah, yeah, I see the same way, though. I you know, as I said, I know people that are very efficient at their jobs, not being gamers, but I think it’s it always adds a lot to care, quality of the product.
Andrej Zito
It’s like you put your heart more into it. Exactly. Yeah.
Yago Sagrado
Yeah. And I know people that not only are managing games being gamers, but they are working in games, they’ve lost forever. So franchises are games that have made an impact on their lives. And now they are getting to put their own expertise and their own, you know, little piece of them to the game. And that makes them that makes it work also much more compelling and attractive. So, I mean, I would say I had the chance to work on a couple of games that have been like, super important for me. It was a very nice experience, you know, you can feel you’re doing something for that game you love. And that’s a very, I would say is a very, very beautiful emotion.
Andrej Zito
Did you did you then play the games that you localized?
Yago Sagrado
Have I played games I have localized? Yes. Yes.
Andrej Zito
Did you enjoy them?
Yago Sagrado
I gotta say if I localized a game, I’m not playing it localized. Right? Yeah, I’m playing the regional. It’s just that thing where you can see all the all the trails, you know, you can see behind what’s happening is it takes you off, right? So no, if I if I if I worked in a game, I would play that game on that original.
Andrej Zito
But if you if you if you don’t work closer, do you prefer to play localized versions? Or do you still stick to the original?
Yago Sagrado
It depends. I know some games I started to play localized and it would be weird to change. But I do I if I love again, I can movies. If I love a movie a lot. I kind of like it quite a lot. I always go see it localized on original question. So if it’s a game I really love it. I will, I would spice things up by changing the language. So you know, that’s kind of Yeah, I would do that. But mainly because all my, all my settings are in English. I mainly play original, but I do like playing localized a lot. So it depends on the game into destiny. I really don’t have that much time to game anymore. So
Andrej Zito
yeah, I know like before, before we started recording, you were talking about Witcher three. And many, many people I know from a check gaming website, they were playing with actually in Polish. Oh, yeah. Have you tried that? Or do you just always stick to like, Spanish or English?
Yago Sagrado
No, I, I speak Spanish and English. Yeah. But I know. I know. For example. I do love when and I think this is localization. When you have like a maybe a world war two game, and you’re creating the Nazis or the Germans or whatever. And you’re doing actual German. So not having the Germans speak German. So you’re having the French to speak French, the German speak German. To me, that’s localization. And that, I love that I really love when that happens. And if I, if I go to, for example, a Russian movie, or a Chinese movie or anything, I would really want it to be Chinese, Russian, or whatever. Still, I need localization for you know, subtitles or whatever. So, localization is always there. Because if not, as I was saying, that content is not relevant. I cannot access that content. There’s the door. So localization is always there. In what measure it depends on on, you know, personal taste. But I would say localization is has to be there.
Andrej Zito
Nice. I’m going to cut this in a short clip. Like what you just said. So yeah, speaking of games, like what are like your favorite games? Like when you had the time, like, let’s say, throughout your gaming, you know, journey? What has been like the top three games that stood out for you?
Yago Sagrado
Okay, so I gotta say in terms of in terms of time played? I wouldn’t be world Warcraft.
Andrej Zito
Hmm.
Yago Sagrado
Yeah, I played that. Yeah, I played World of Warcraft for. I still do play World of Warcraft from time to time.
Andrej Zito
Oh, did you get the new shadow lens or?
Yago Sagrado
Yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s what I’m playing right now.
Andrej Zito
What is your main character?
Yago Sagrado
Cindy Laurie troll rogue?
Andrej Zito
Yes. Yeah.
Yago Sagrado
So what’s yours?
Andrej Zito
Well, I started as a hunter. When I first launched the game. I think it was still he was still the beta. I was like, I’m going to play as a hunter because hunter had a pet. And I think No, no, no. Okay. The story is like this. I think I was I started playing as as a horde. And you start in the I don’t know that. What is the starting area like next to augury mark. And then you had Crossroads? Yeah. To return to return to return. Yeah. And then you had crossroads, which was one of the I’m not sure if on your servers, but that’s where a lot of the Alliance resort fights used to happen.
Yago Sagrado
And not not too much. But why initially? Yeah. Then it went. It moved to Terra mille Yeah.
Andrej Zito
And so when I was playing, I think I started playing as a horde. And when I was there, there was like a group of people who were going like, Okay, let’s go fight Alliance, and we went to ashenvale. So I went to action Vale as a horde, and I was like, Oh, my God, like, this forest is so beautiful.
Yago Sagrado
I get to switch. So then
Andrej Zito
When I get the get the real game, once it was released, I was like, okay, night elephant, or, and I’ll be there with my pet and have fun. But eventually, because I saw like, a lot of, I started playing a little bit of arena. And resto Druids were so so so, so popular and so good. You know, so I want it to be like, Okay, I’m gonna be like this, you know, super, super great guy. So I started under the character, and then I stick like, since then I think I’ve been playing. I don’t mind playing supports, even in other games, like in Overwatch, like, I don’t mind like just healing people and not just being about just killing.
Yago Sagrado
It kind of went the same way. For me. I started my first character was an undead role. Initially, I don’t remember now, if it was an undead rogue, or if it was a I think it was a rogue. But I think it was a troll room. Yes. Sorry. I wanted to roll on that until I saw trolls because I’m talking about when we’re the worker was already was still saying we have a new class for the Alliance. new class for the Horde, so I was already into World of Warcraft before it was released. I was kind of reading about it. So first, initially I wanted to be undead then I wrote a then the trolls came out, I knew for a fact that I wanted to be a troll. So I created the troll rogue. I went up to level 60 I did Molten Core, you know, all that stuff. And then I realized that it was a pain in the ass to be a DPS, if you want it to go inside, like one of the big clans or if you wanted to raid, or if you wanted to do stuff
Andrej Zito
Why? Because too much competition or what?
Yago Sagrado
Not competition, but my client kind of disbanded and everyone was all clients were already filled with dpss but they all needed healers and tax. So that’s the always the thing. So I said, Okay, you know, let’s try this out. So I created a priest, which was the other class they wanted to do. And it wasn’t through priests that are be, you know, this bad shadow priest or whatever. But then I reached level 16. And no one was speaking to shadow priests. They just wanted the holy priests. So I wrote, I changed spec, I went holy. And it was amazing, man, I did find a lot of fun by playing a priest back in there and I read it. I did everything as a holy priest. It was it was great, Matt. And still today, it has been my my priest was my main character.
Yago Sagrado
Even I’d say up to Legion, like the old the last expansion, it was still my priest put a band I played with a breeze. And then I wanted to I played the rope just as an alt character. And now for this expansion. I’m just going with the rope because as a main because it just changed things up a bit. And I’m having a lot of fun. I think it’s super cool. But then I will I will level up the priest again. I mean, that that’s that he’s been there with me forever. So he deserves it.
Andrej Zito
Did you already have time to hit the cap? Or are you still leveling? Oh, yeah.
Yago Sagrado
Yeah. On Shadowlands? Yeah. Yeah. I’m done. Couple tour guests. And a couple more he writes. Not Not, not mythic yet. So I’m still kind of gearing up.
Andrej Zito
Are you part of any guild? Or
Yago Sagrado
Not? No. I play with friends and stuff. So and nowadays, you don’t need guilt anymore.
Andrej Zito
LFR.
Yago Sagrado
Yeah, I so I, I play kind of solo with friends. We have a group of three or four, five. And when rates come you have a group finder tool, which I think is great. And I get to raid I get to see everything. But if you want it to do if you want to do like, more competitive, you know that the height, the height, complicated stuff, you need a guild to be be consistent and efficient. But I don’t have the time anymore to spend on being the super best. I wanted to have like all the purples back in vanilla with my priest and I didn’t sleep for days. You know, it was I was sick. I was in school back then. Last year of school, I would say maybe it’s like the year before. And some days I didn’t sleep just playing World of Warcraft, doing Black Rock spire. And just just getting your heat resistance gear for multicore.
Yago Sagrado
That was a pain in the ass. Oh, yeah, that was terrible. But it was so much. It was such a great game. And then I would say one of the other games that really really made a difference to me or really had a super great impact was Deus Ex
Andrej Zito
Man I love you. That’s my most favorite game.
Yago Sagrado
Yeah, I have a tattoo.
Andrej Zito
Really? Nice
Yago Sagrado
Yeah. That too. So that was actually my first tattoo. The first tattoo I had was TSX.
Andrej Zito
Wow.
Yago Sagrado
So that again, first one is such an amazing game. I still have memories of it. I play it like two or three times. It’s such a such a great game.
Andrej Zito
I played it like maybe three years ago and it’s still good.
Yago Sagrado
Yeah, that’s the thing. I played it back in the day, and maybe I’ve won some years ago. I had this game of the year 2000 Game of the Year edition. So I played it again. And it was like amazing of the gameplay. I mean, the graphics are, you know, like what they were but they The game itself is just great is such a good game. I didn’t like second one that much. But I think it was a necessary step towards the New DS axis. So Human Revolution of Mankind Divided and had a problem with Mankind Divided, I was playing, and I was enjoying it quite a lot. But my graphic card died in the middle of a play, so, and I didn’t, I couldn’t restore my safe file for some reason. So now that I have a new PC, I can’t restore my save file. So I am just not willing to go through half of the game again.
Yago Sagrado
Because if, if I do it, I have to do everything because I tried to find the last stuff and I go super stealthy. takes a lot of time. So yeah, and then 1/3 game, just out of how good it is, I would say the Witcher three, as in a game that has an has had an impact on just how great it’s built. It’s just amazing. And the story, I became so invested in the story that very few games have gotten me so hooked on a story. And I gotta say, That game is great. But then you have DLCs but the two DLCs which are as content heavy as games for 6070 bucks out there, and they have much more content in the DLC. Alright guys say the blotter wine DLC is Wow, man. That blew my mind. It was i don’t think i don’t know if i liked it even more than the original. You know, like the big main The Witcher three game. I really love so much blood or wine so much so much.
Andrej Zito
Yeah. What do you play when you’re sitting on the toilet center? Do you play like any of the casual mobile games or not really?
Yago Sagrado
No, not a casual gamer. I do play teamfight tactics. So that’s riots. RHS out of valor. And I do play. Yeah. teamfight tactics. I haven’t played it for a while. But I had was cooked. And you can play that on your mobile phone now. So on the toilet, yeah, I sometimes play teamfight tactics. So I mean, anyone who plays teamfight tactics, no, it’s not going to be a short game. So it’s not a five minute game. So I take my time.
Andrej Zito
Okay, um, what are you curious about right now? Like, whether it’s work related or personally?
Yago Sagrado
I’m curious to play cyberpunk.
Andrej Zito
Right?
Yago Sagrado
No, I’m kidding. Well, I’d say I’m curious about how well it’s professional, but it’s also personal, I’m curious about how the whole streaming ecosystem or environment is going to develop. Because when I was young, when I was still young, but when I was like, as a teenager, I dreamt of this, you know, spot where you can go in and maybe go grab a motorbike, and then you know, more by the Moto GP game would start, and then maybe you could go back to that hub, and go through a portal, and then the World of Warcraft would start. And then so you have like, a single spot where you could, you know, develop an entire life between games. And now that you know, cross platform gaming is starting to be a thing. And then you have streaming services also interconnecting different brands and publishers.
Yago Sagrado
So for example, now, you got Amazon Luna, but they are going to bring Ubisoft plus you’re going to have made a stadia unsteady is going to bring was it brought a play, but you know this, so there’s an interconnection that I think is developing. And I’m curious to see how that’s gonna play out like our company’s going to shake hands and create enjoined efforts or are they going to keep working separate entities and I’ve seen that for example, you get fortnight and fortnight is is a prime example of merging franchises and IPS. And the fact that Florida is just for it’s just a battle royale game but they And you had like this, this concert by Travis Scott within the game, then you had the other day you had this event in which the world imploded that that level of storytelling that goes beyond the game is what I’m super, super excited about, like, I don’t know, if you know what happened in fortnight, like, I don’t play fortnight, but I’m always on top of what they do, because I find it super, super interesting.
Yago Sagrado
Like, the other day they brought in Marvel. So when you started a game, and you were like, an Stacy’s for a while, so you kind of were freaking out seeing what happened. And then when the event started Galactus, which is a Marvel character that eats worlds came, and then the Iron Man saved you. And you were, you know, doing all this stuff. And then, you know, you beat Galactus, but he kind of just broke the world. And, and your, your, your screen goes black, you cannot play fortnight for for some hours, because because they are consistent with their story. So if the world was broken, it was broken. And an event before that. They did like that the world kind of imploded for some reason died out of rehab, and some saying I’m not really on top of things, but the world imploded. Were you locked into fortnight for a day or two.
Yago Sagrado
And that’s like the boldest move I’ve ever seen, like, you’re having your fan base not being able to play your game, just because you want to do this fancy thing. And when you logged into fortnight you only see you only saw like a black screen and a small.of light, which was kind of you know, the universe imploded into single spot, there wasn’t this music. That was it for like a day or two. And then the world kind of exploded back again, everything kind of just went back to normal, the map has changed. So it kind of makes sense, on a storytelling level, or a marketing level on a gameplay level. So I’m based by what those guys are doing. So I’m super curious about how games kind of, you know, keep breaking barriers, whether it’s by technology advancements, like streaming or by storytelling. developments, like the ones that fortnight are doing?
Andrej Zito
What do you think about the subscription services? Like where you pay a monthly fee? And you can play a bunch of games in the collection? Do you see like when you were talking about like, these companies may be getting together in one ecosystem? Do you think that maybe in few years, like, if you’re a gamer, just give us I don’t know, 20 bucks a month and play any game in the world?
Yago Sagrado
That that’s what I’m curious about? will that happen? I don’t know, do I want that to happen? I don’t know as well. So is that a good thing? If it happens, I don’t know. But as for subscription services, I think you get a lot of value out of a subscription service, while depending on the service, but you get a lot of value out of that money. So I find them to be a rational kind of move. So for example, when I was playing Wow, but in a while, you know, while back in the days, I told people that was paying a monthly fee to pay again. And that was freaked people out. But now you’re seeing that paying like maybe a $10 or $11 fee. If you’re getting enough value out of it, it’s actually a much more intelligent move than paying 70 bucks for a game. Because for example, I could play World of Warcraft for a month. For a while you got the you got to buy a big expansion.
Yago Sagrado
But once you have that you can play with a partner for a month for $12. And the amount of gaming you get out of it, versus how much you paid for it. Or the the amount of money versus the hours of enjoyment. It’s actually a very, very good value. You’re seeing that with subscription services. You could you could subscribe to EA Play Ubisoft Plus, I don’t know you could play an entire model of the games they have there for $12. That’s amazing. I’m I’m very comfortable with subscription services, but maybe because I have this experience where I’ve always had with water worker. I know for other players it might be a little bit alien still. But I am super comfortable. And I think I think there’s a definite bet for subscription services. As you can see, that’s where the industry is heading.
Yago Sagrado
Also, it makes a lot of sense and a bit from a business point of view because of you. the gaming industry. We’re like By the spikes, you get ups and downs, big ups and downs, where you have like this huge revenue stream, and then it went down, and you’re maybe doing a two year development process for a game, and you’re not earning anything. Of course, you can have other games probably in the pipeline to, to compensate. But it always kind of went like this, you release a game, you get a lot of income, and then it slows down. But if you were, you’re working on a subscription model, then benefits stay, kind of I mean, they could they could, you know, go up and down, depending on on getting some industry or whatever. But you have a constant stream of revenues. And that makes a lot of sense.
Yago Sagrado
I mean, what company doesn’t want to have a constant stream of revenues, what company really wants to go like this? No one because it’s very risky. And what how about if the stream you’re expecting, like the peak you’re expecting to reach doesn’t come because their game flops or anything. So if you have a subscription model, you can compensate the bat with other good games. And I think that’s also, I would say, a way of surviving when you’re making making the industry less volatile, and making people be able to survive. And I think it may also help smaller developers, or, you know, put their games out there, maybe through a subscription service, I just wish that the big names that wanted to have the the platforms, the stores, and the subscription models, you can be paying, they do things, right.
Yago Sagrado
Because they’re going to have a lot of power. So I I really love indie games, and, you know, in the developers and stuff, so I just finished playing Hades. And man, I was, I was blown out by the quality of that game, it’s just such a good game. And you and you got to give props to those guys. I really want those ideas to stick out. So the only fear I have with subscription models is that the big names are going to have too much power. And they’re going to kind of filter what they want, depending on their own interests. But while steam has always been there, and you know, it has served as a platform for all games. So that has worked nicely. So hopefully, this doesn’t go Apple, or you know, because they’re gonna have so much the one that had so much control over stuff that they kind of overdo things, the way I see it. So yeah, that’s, that’s my only fear.
Yago Sagrado
But I would say subscription models. And then if you can go from one to the other. That’s, you got it. Why? Why will I be paying like 70 bucks per single game? Maybe 70 bucks is already maybe four months of subscription. So in four months, how many games you can depend you try out? A pal, mate, how much value can you take out of those four months? So it’s quite a lot. So excited to see where that goes. For sure. Yeah.
Andrej Zito
My notorious question, what do you think is wrong with our industry?
Yago Sagrado
Well, lots of things. I think we are on the outside of the gaming industry, super fun, and you know, like a very dynamic place to be but it’s still it’s still a business and I know the big moguls they are, the highest positions in the gaming industry have not yet been conquered by gamers. So,
Andrej Zito
What do you mean?
Yago Sagrado
I would say a lot of the higher higher positions are just
Andrej Zito
You mean like a like a CEO of like a big
Yago Sagrado
CEOs and executives and you know, the big, big names the big big fish. They are executives and just business focused people, right. And for for an industry for an entertainment industry like video games that creates such a first degree such a personal investment. I think that might be a problem when you’re just thinking about money and not quality. On the other side, well we all know about problems with crunch. And you know, I would say work exploitation, but there’s there’s there’s people that have been, you know, overworked just for the sake of being there for a deadline. That’s a problem. We all have to think about our This industry is made out of gamers and people, if we want everyone to keep it alive, and if we want to make good, we have to take care of our people first, I would say those types of crunches, and, you know, it’s nothing you don’t see on other industries.
Yago Sagrado
But I’d say the software industry like specifically on the development industry, which is video games, in the end, when you have those hard deadlines, remember back in the day, some back in the day, so you had like that Blizzard philosophy where things will go would be ready when they are ready. So I kind of missed some of that. moving, moving, you know, watching a lot of the things that develop in the industry, although I’m just being some advancements, I would say, the community communities have gotten together. And it’s great to see how, you know, harassment issues or work exploitation is being addressed. It’s good to see that people are moving forward to a nicer place to work. I can say working in the video games industry, it’s such a vocational thing. So it’s such a thing you do out of love and passion, that it may be exploited. You know, so you can just for you to be there hours and hours, because hey, this is the thing you love. Yeah. I also love having a life. Yeah, also playing video games not working just for video.
Andrej Zito
Yeah.
Yago Sagrado
So I would say my biggest wish for the gaming industry would be to make it a safe, flexible, and, you know, great place to work, you know, saying, Hey, I work in the video game industry. And really feel you are something special? Yeah. Because right now people say, hey, that must be cool, right? And I say, Well, you know, it’s cool. I mean, I love it. It’s the thing I love. I love working in video games. But it can be tough as nails. And it doesn’t really need to be if things are, you know,
Andrej Zito
Is there anything that you would point out? When it comes to game localization? You talked about like the game industry as the bake, anything that will stand out for you as, as the biggest challenge of game localization, or audio localization?
Yago Sagrado
Not really, I’d say Game Audio localization isn’t a very nice place. I think. I only wish it was a bit more respected in media and stuff like that. So localization as a whole, you know, so both audio and text, I would wish that more people would kind of know, the effort that goes behind a good localization, and that people enjoying the localization would feel would know, hey, this company, did it get worse did it, whoever did this, and they did an amazing job. And they said, kudos to you. So because i think i think it’s super good. And there’s a lot of effort behind it. But I think most of the times, it’s just like a given. Players are expecting that to be good, without knowing how much it takes, even for the developers. How much of an effort it takes to localize the game. Yeah, this more visual recognition for our workouts.
Andrej Zito
I think you did a pretty good job like shedding a light on the whole process. Right? Yeah,
Yago Sagrado
maybe the fact is that we are not so open and
Andrej Zito
It’s also your role, right communication specialist. I assume that like telling everyone that this is what we did.
Yago Sagrado
Yeah, yeah, that’s part of my role Exactly. In keywords now, it’s just getting people to know what we do a little bit better because we’ve we’ve felt that there’s a lack there, there’s a gap between all the efforts we do and how how invested we become in games and how much passion we put in them. And you know, people not knowing so if we’re doing it mean, why don’t let people know, it’s not about ego is not about bragging is about you know, we want you to feel there’s there’s this work behind, so you can also feel that hey, I love this and I really appreciate you taking the time developer service provided all the people involved, clients, the vendors and all the people involved. Hey guys, this has been an amazing game for me as a gamer. I thank you for it. I can willingly pay the price.
Yago Sagrado
It takes without feeling I’m getting scammed or anything. Because there’s such a huge amount of effort and money to create a single game. Just think about like, it’s we’re talking about millions for a triple A game to millions. So you know, make it making it known to people how how all that all the things that went into that game they loved. I think it just makes it even more lovable or more enjoyable
Andrej Zito
Do people from the localization side make it to the end credits?
Yago Sagrado
Yeah, yeah. It depends on on the agreement you have with certain clients, the most of the times you get at least a localization done by keyword studios, if not, the other times, you’ll get again, localization department, keyword studios, and all the names that worked there. And you know, all the companies and whatever. So may may go by country may go by Studio and may go by, but the localization is integrates. Mostly always, but there’s clients that really don’t want to disclose anything about their games. So they just keep that to themselves.
Andrej Zito
Yeah, when you were talking about the recognition, the thing that I thought of, are you familiar with Jeff q? Is the game being awards for gaming awards?
Yago Sagrado
Not the Game Awards?
Andrej Zito
Yeah, I think it’s by Jeff Keeley. He’s like the host. And he created it, I think,
Yago Sagrado
Okay. I wasn’t aware. But yeah,
Andrej Zito
I was just wondering if there’s maybe like, category for like, the best localization or something like that.
Yago Sagrado
I know, there’s, for example, you’ve got the mobile games or games Awards, and those have specific categories for best localization, and even personalization provider. So that would be like a company like us for the Game Awards. I don’t know if you have, I think they’re much more focused on you know, no, I don’t think the game awards have that. But I know of awards that like the teego Awards, they also game related. And they have a a category for for that, and there’s several others. He can also go on, you know, local. On a local point of view, you have like specific, best dubbing talent based video game dubbing for the year. So you have those also locally. But yeah, I would, I would really want for example, you know, the college joysticks, The Game Awards, you know, the big names and the awards to kind of recognize also good localization maybe good translations could all your topic. That will be a nice, that will be a nice thing to see.
Andrej Zito
Yeah, unfortunately, I don’t know Jeff QE I was inviting him to another podcast, but he didn’t respond to me. But maybe that’s something you can put on your to do list. Make a friend with Jeff QE. Whenever I meet him,
Yago Sagrado
I will surely make him know that. We want this to happen.
Andrej Zito
Yeah, go so let’s turn this against you. So what’s something that people seem to misunderstand about you?
Yago Sagrado
This is kind of personal. But I think that being outspoken my always saying seem, or maybe just seemingly an extrovert. So I wouldn’t go into details, but I think I wouldn’t know how to actually put it, but I think that people usually feel I’m kind of an extrovert. But in reality, I’ve been kind of shy my whole life. Really? Yeah. No, but I think being extrovert doesn’t really mean you’re shy or not shy. So being shy is a different thing. It depends on you know, power structures and, you know, relationships and stuff. But yeah, just people think that they can judge a book by the cover. And that’s just not how, how it goes. So I think if you want to meet someone, just ask, you know, become invested. So not saying that, just because someone is trying to be, you know, fun and making plays nice for everyone and stuff like that.
Yago Sagrado
That might look like he’s an extrovert but don’t think that he is trying to, you know, becomes friends with the bosses just because he he wants to scale because he wants to be friends with everyone in the office because he’s, you know, trying to move and there’s a lot of I think there’s a lot of that. In the games industry or Well, I would say in any in any industry, people have their own interests, and they would feel threatened by, you know, others. So I think we, I mean, the gaming industry is formed by weird people, I would say, if a person became involved or passionate about games, as you know, to, for example, dedicated nights to single game, we’re not talking about the usual, you know, outspoken person, that person that might have probably dealt with, you know, shyness, or, you know, is more comfortable interacting with people through screen than in person, because they have the, you know, that’s just how they are. So I think we have to treat each other nicely in the video game industry, because we’re all much more alike. I would say. So, what do people get wrong on me? I say. I read.
Andrej Zito
Mike, my question would then be because you talk about like, what people understand as an extrovert versus introvert and it’s not about being shy or not. So what is your definition of extrovert versus introvert because I also like only recently read somewhere that extrovert is a person who like gets energy from being with other people, while introvert gets it when he’s alone. Is that what you?
Yago Sagrado
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I’d say that being extrovert doesn’t mean that you you’re not struggling with other things on your insight is that people make you feel good, then you want them to feel good by your side. Maybe you can be shy, but you kind of try and overcome that just because you want people to feel comfortable, or you’re shy in certain situations. But then when you gain trust, and you’re comfortable. So I think shyness is also I think of not being comfortable with new people. But that, that you can be comfortable with people you know, and still be an introvert. So you could be not so super outs, outspoken and, you know, very flamboyant, or whatever. So I think being extroverts and introverts doesn’t really mean you don’t have those, that the same types of feelings.
Yago Sagrado
I just think that what you said is a great definition. If you’re an introvert, maybe you kind of need your space to be alone. And if you’re an extrovert, you need people to energize. You also want to give that out to other people. And that’s in that sense, that’s why I want to I always like to be around people. But that’s what I love about games. Yeah, that you can get to work with people and do stuff. So that’s why For example, I loved about going raiding or working outdoors when I went, you know, playing with friends and Starcraft or strategy games. I love the collaboration, the cooperation towards a single end. And when you win, it’s like, Guys,
Andrej Zito
We did it together. Right?
Yago Sagrado
Yeah, exactly.
Andrej Zito
My final question. I’m trying to think which one would be actually, because I like you.
Yago Sagrado
You’re not gonna put me in a bad position.
Andrej Zito
I’ll let you pick because a lot of people actually struggle with these questions, especially if they didn’t do any preparation and thinking about this. So there are two things and pick one. Which one is better for you? I asked about like things you change your mind about like, let’s say, for a long time you thought it like the world functions this way. And then something you read something or maybe you played some game or something, you saw something that was not you talk to someone and suddenly like oh, like you like walk up and you’d like radically change your mindset mindset or like the view of the world. The second question is absurd, or stupid things that you do so things that are like, let’s say normal to you, but all the other people would say like, Are you crazy?
Yago Sagrado
Well, I think I, I do quite a lot of those stupid things. I for example, I I feel so embarrassed when I take a hot shower in summer, that when I finished I when I finished I put the top on the cold water opposition. So people when they come in, they say okay, this guy has taken a cold shower because he’s the man.
Andrej Zito
Oh my god, man.
Yago Sagrado
Yeah, I have those types of things where I’m super conscious of you know, stupid stuff. But that that will be one thing about the other, like, what have I thought, what has changed my mind, I think that as time goes by I, I’m more disconnected with the idea of individual merits, and stuff like that. So I do believe that they, they, they have been teaching us for a long time that you can work, work hard, and you’ll get whatever you want, and becoming ever more disconnected with that idea. Because I see that privilege plays a huge role on on how your life is going to be developed. So if you can develop the tools, the emotional tools and the social tools to that that are actually the necessary or the most wanted tools for you know, a certain industry or a certain role, then you will, you’ll be rewarded by that.
Yago Sagrado
But that’s, that’s a, it’s a particular thing. So maybe one thing is that someone might get to be the boss, just because they can, you know, handle groups of people, because they’re good at that. But that doesn’t mean they’re technically good at, you know, solving problems. Or, you know, they know how to create this script for anything. So what I’m seeing is that, what I would like companies to stop being so vertical, so you cannot go up and become a leader for some reason, because you kind of manage people. But then you see that the ones that actually have the talent are the ones that are below well, that they have different talents, it’s because for example, that you got your you can have this certain person that’s super good with scripts, macros, creates a lot of, you know, good stuff and technologies for the company or whatever.
Yago Sagrado
But he’s shy, he’s an introvert, he, he doesn’t really connect with people that much more, and he’s not going to be the boss, but he’s going to get paid less, because he’s not the boss. But I know for a fact that the boss is not more able than that other guy. So I would say the idea, you know, of vertical structures is tumbling in my head. And the fact that people get what they want, because they work hard for it. It’s also a lie to me. I think people get what they want, if they, if they have the social structure to support that. So if you’ve been born in a certain way, if, if you’re a man, you’re going to have more privileges, if you’re a white man, you’re going to have more privilege. And if you’re a straight white man, you can have even more privilege. So that and that, that plays a role.
Yago Sagrado
Like I thought that all the good things that have happened to me were because I deserved them when I was a lot younger, then now I see is it’s not because ACC deserve it. I mean, I work for them, but maybe other people worked harder for them, and they didn’t get it. And that’s, that’s terrible. That’s, that’s super tough. So the idea that merit is what defines how high or where you get in life, as at that will be a lie to me. Although you still need to work a lot. If we’re for whatever you got to do. He got to work. So the other thing that has changed is that, to me, everything is so complicated. Like I always try to do things perfectly. And to me doing a single thing, maybe maybe that’s the answer to the question, Why, what’s the thing that people do wrong on me? Maybe they think I have it all figured out.
Yago Sagrado
But in my mind, I’m really, really just panicking. Like, it’s just done. I’m good at not showing. But I would say I think that everything is super complicated. doing a podcast is complicated, like having a nice picture, having a nice camera, or you know, just doing like you’ve done getting the interviews and preparing the questions and having a nice frame and doing the audio. There’s so many things involved in such an every small thing you do. That to me, I’m becoming even more aware of, you know, whatever it is that people do. Good there. It’s pacing that they can do it. So that to me, that’s, that’s whatever it is, even if you’re doing like this little thing, if it’s not nicely, it’s super complicated.
Yago Sagrado
Doing a nice soup is extremely complicated doing, you know, a piece of a T shirt, if you’re going to a nice t shirt. Doing a nice t shirt is extremely complicated. Doing a nice localization is extremely complicated. So, yeah, my, my mind is always thinking, wow, this guy has talent that other guy has done, this woman has a lot of talent. Everything people do that works is complicated. And I wish that people would think more, rather than thinking I could do that better. Like, yeah, could you really for sure, could you?
Andrej Zito
Yes. You know, when you were talking about the vertical hierarchy, or like the structure company, the first thing that came to my mind was valve, I think, at some point, I read somewhere that they have a very flat structure. So maybe that’s your destination.
Yago Sagrado
I will investigate how that works. And I really don’t have the answer to how that kind of develops. But I know there’s some theories starting to move around on that. That sense of that, you know, doesn’t move that way. So, yeah, I think companies in the future will go that way. For sure. Hope.
Andrej Zito
This was a real pleasure. For me, I go, thank you very much for your time, it was more than two hours. Very good. final words from you. If you could speak to the minds of the industry, I think you said a lot of good, like inspiring things throughout the interview. But final words from you, what would you say?
Yago Sagrado
Well, again, I think it’s all about the people. It’s all about the workers is all about creating a nice place to develop yourself. So let’s not take for granted that passion is the only thing you need to work in the video game industry we need we need nice jobs, we need a nice salaries, we need healthy environments, we need all those all that stuff. If we want the people working in a video game industry to to develop nicely, you know, games to be good, because in the end, if you can’t provide your people with all those things, I think it will show and you know, get back into about to happen and you know, mistakes and stuff like that millions of dollars being lost. So I think in the end, it’s all about the people. That’s what I’m always trying to put focus on. Whatever, whatever I do all communication strategies I tried to follow for keywords. It’s all about people, people, people out all people outside and people inside.
Andrej Zito
For sure. Thank you. I have nothing more to add.
Yago Sagrado
Well, thank you so much. It’s been great.
Andrej Zito
Yeah, thank you and bye bye and see you next time.
Yago Sagrado
Bye. Bye. Bye bye. Thank you so much.
